Walter and Agnes Forsyth of Penicuik

Click on the title of this post to see the Spittal Farmhouse close to Penicuik. I don't know if this is the farmhouse that Walter Forsyth lived in, but it is the general area.

A Walter Forsyth (perhaps the brother of our James Forsyth [Helen Scott], but most certainly a relative of James) married Agnes Ferguson Dec 12, 1812 in Penicuik. Agnes was probably the daughter of William Ferguson and Jean Buyer baptised September 23, 1778 in Biggar, Lanark. This town is not far from Penicuik and Agnes provided this town as her place of birth in the 1851 census, as shown below.

Three daughters were baptised in Penicuik: Jean, 25 August, 1814; Marion, August 16, 1816; and Joan, December 5, 1818. Alison, born about 1826, is with her father and sister, Joanna, in the 1841 census below.

A Thomas BROWN married Jean Forsyth on July 20, 1832 in Penicuik, Midlothian. Marion died in 1838 at 22 years of age and is buried the Penicuik churchyard. Alison married William ROBB in 1841, and Joan(na) married a Thomas MURRAY in 1849.

The 40 year old John Forsyth in the 1841 census who is married to Isabella Sinclair is probably the son of a John Forsyth, substantiated by an 1821 baptism of a child of John and his wife, Isabel Sinclair when one of the witnesses is a John Forsyth, Senior. Note that there is a 15 year old John Forsyth, an apprentice, living with Laings in 1841. He is probably a son of John and Isabella.

The facts which seem to suggest that James and Walter were brothers are:
i) Walter witnessed the baptism of a son of James in Penicuik
ii) both had a second daughter named Marion...perhaps their mother's name *

Therefore, there appears to be two Forsyth brothers living in the Penicuik area in the first decade of the 19th century. Walter lives there until his death, but James moves to East Lothian. There might have been a third brother, John, in the area, but there was definitely a John, son of John Sr.
1841 Census - Penicuik -Midlothian Address: -
FORSYTH, John, M, 40, Ag. Lab, b. Outside County
FORSYTH, Isabella (Sinclair), F, 40, b.Midlothian
FORSYTH, Isabella, F, 15, Paper Mill, b. Midlothian
FORSYTH, Jane, F, 10, Paper Mill, b. Midlothian

1841 Census -Place: Penicuik -Midlothian Address: Spittal Farm
FORSYTH, Walter, M, 70, Farmer, b. Outside County
FORSYTH, Joanna, F, 20, b. Midlothian FORSYTH, Alison, F, 15, b.Midlothian BROWN, David, M, 8, b. Midlothian SOMERVILLE, Mary, F, 18, Servant, b. Outside County
SOMERVILLE, Isabella, F, 15, Servant, b. OutsideCounty *

1841 Census Place: Penicuik -Midlothian Address: Monks Burn Cottage
BROWN, Thomas, M, 34, Wright, b. Outside County
BROWN, Jean, F, 25, b. Midlothian BROWN, Walter, M, 6, b. Midlothian
FORSYTH, Agnes, F, 62, Independent, b. Outside County
FORSYTH, Agnes, F, 3, b. Midlothian ** see 1851 below- Agnes Brown
ROBB, John, M, 18, Wright Journeyman, b. Outside County
HURT, James, M, 15, Wright Apprentice, b. Outside County
MASON, Mary, F, 15, Servant, b.Outside County

1841 Census Place: Penicuik -Midlothian Address: Silver Burn Smithy
LAING, Andrew, M, 55, Wright J&M, b. Outside County
LAING, Jean, F, 55, b. Outside County (1841)
LAING, John, M, 23, Wright Journeyman, b. Midlothian
LAING, Elizabeth, F, 19, b. Midlothian
LAING, George, M, 12, b. Midlothian
STODDART, Robert, M, 20, Wright Journeyman, b. Outside County
THOMSON, James, M, 15, Wright Journeyman, b. Outside County
WHITE, Adam, M, 20,Wright Apprentice, b. Midlothian
FORSYTH, John, M, 15, Wright Apprentice, b. Midlothian
BAILEY, George, M, 15, Agr. Labourer, b. Midlothian
HISLOP, Margaret, F, 15, Servant, b. Midlothian *

1851 Census Place: Penicuik -Midlothian Address: Nether Friarton
FORSYTH, Agnes, Head, Wid, F, 73, Annuitant, b. Lanarkshire - Biggar
BROWN, David, Grnson, Unm. M, 18, Wright, Midlothian - Penicuik [In 1851, Agnes is the only Forsyth surname in Penicuik] *

1851 Census Penicuik -Midlothian Address: Monk B(urn) Cottage
BROWN, Thomas, Head, Mar. M, 45, Joiner & Cart Wright Emp 2 Men, b. Lanarkshire - Dunsyre
BROWN, Jean, M, F, 36, Wife, b. Midlothian - Penicuik
BROWN, Walter, Son, Unm, M, 16, Cart Wright, b. Midlothian - Penicuik
BROWN, Agnes, Dau, F, 13, Scholar, b. Midlothian - Penicuik
BROWN, Joanna, Dau, F, 7, Scholar, b. Midlothian - Penicuik
BROWN, Thomas, Son, M, 4, b. Midlothian - Penicuik
BROWN, Jean, Servnt, Unm, F, 22, House Servant, b. Peebles-shire * *

Marriages of Children of Walter and Agnes Forsyth:
Jean Forsyth=Thomas Brown 20 July 1832 Penicuik
Alison Forsyth=Wm Robb 21 Dec 1841 Penicuik (at 9 Mile Burn in 1851)
Joanna Forsyth=Thomas Murray 17 July 1849 Penicuik

Marriages of Children of John &
Isabella Forsyth:
Isabella Forsyth = James Whyte, 14 Dec 1851 Penicuik
Jane Forsyth = Walter Easton 20 Feb 1857 Penicuik

Burials in Penicuik Churchyard:
1838, Nov. 16 - Marion Forsyth, dau of Walter, Farmer of Spittal, age 22 years

1849, Jan. 27 - Walter Forsyth, Farmer, Spitthall, age 80 years

Map of the Pentland Hills

PENTLAND HILLS

This map doesn't enlarge very clearly. If you click on the title, you can find the map on the website it was borrowed from. Penicuik is on the bottom edge just to the left of the top of the elevation key. Fairliehope is close to the river just above the purple dot at the lowest portion of the map. There appears to be a Spittal Hill above Fairliehope and right of a lake. James and Helen Forsyth lived at Farleyhope in 1808 and a Walter Forsyth lived on the Spittal Farm in the 1841 census for Penicuik.

Looking for parents of James Forsyth, died 1842

The three eldest sons of James Forsyth and Helen Scott were John, Robert and James. According to the traditional naming pattern, John would have been the father of James; Robert, the father of Helen; and James named after himself, the father of the child.

The witnesses at the baptism of John Forsyth in 1806 were Robert Scott and John Forsyth, perhaps the two grandfathers of the child. Of course, these men might have been brothers of James and Helen. However, it is a good clue for searching for the parents of James and Helen.

In the 1808 baptism of the son, Robert Forsyth, the witnesses are Robert Scott again and Alexander Davidson. In 1811, the witnesses are John Thomson and Walter Forsyth.

In the 1841 census for Scotland we find:
*
FORSYTH, James, Male, 70, Shepherd of Haddington, born E. Lothain (not correct), Address: Hardgate Street, Haddington (East Lothian)
*
FORSYTH, Walter, Male, 70, Farmer, born Outside Midlothian, Address: Spittal Farm, Penicuik
*
FORSYTH, John, M, 60, born outside Midlothian
FORSYTH, Jean, F, 50 born outside Midlothian
(Living with 25 year old married son, Alexander, farmer)
Address: Briechmill, West Calder -Midlothian

Calder is reported as the place of death of our James Forsyth. There are three Calders, but they are all within miles of each other south of Edinburgh.

This means we could be looking for a family headed by a John Forsyth
with two elder sons named Walter and James and a younger son named John.
The sons were not born in Midlothian or East Lothian and perhaps in SELKIRK or PEEBLES.

John Forsyth

Parish Registers of Penicuik Parish, Midlothian:
"Forsyth, James Residenter (?) in Pennycuik and Helen Scott his spouse had a child born 3 November 1806 and baptized 17th named JOHN
Witnesses: John Forsyth and Robert Scott"

The three eldest sons of James Forsyth and Helen Scott were John, Robert and James. According to the traditional naming pattern, John would have been the father of James; Robert, the father of Helen; and James named after himself, the father of the child. Of course, these names might have been the names of brothers of James and Helen. However, this is a good clue for searching for the parents of James and Helen.

Tracing Movements of James and Helen Forsyth

Marion Forsyth (Mrs. John Cochrane) was the second daughter of James and Helen Forsyth and was born about 1803. In the 1861 census, Marian Forsyth Cochrane gave her birthplace as West Linton, Midlothian. (In an earlier census, she said her birthplace was Pennycuik). West Linton now appears to be in Peebleshire

Penicuik Parish, 1806 -"Forsyth, James Residenter (?) in Pennycuik and Helen Scott his spouse had a child born 3 November 1806 and baptized 17th named JOHN Witnesses: John Forsyth and Robert Scott"

Pencuik Parish, 1808 - 'Forsyth, James, Farmer of Farleyhope, Parish of Linton and Helen Scott his spouse had a child born the 29th of August 1808 and baptized 28th named ROBERT Witnesses- Robert Scott and Alexander Davidson'

Penicuik Parish, 1811 - "Forsyth, James and Helen Scott from the Parish of Lasswade had a child born the 15th of March, 1811 and baptized the 20th /29th (?) named JAMES Witnesses: John Thomson and Walter Forsyth

Marriage of James Forsyth and Helen Scott 1801

Map showing Penicuik, Mid-lothian and Yarrow, Selkirk, the parishes of James Forsyth and Helen Scott

Parish of Penicuik, Mid-Lothian - "Forsyth, James, Tenant in Spittal of this parish and Jean Scott of the Parish of Yarrow gave in their names for Proclamtion in Order to Marriage (sic), January, 1801 and were married the 20th of February, 1801."

The above record is from the Parish of Yarrow, Selkirk which was the home of Helen Scott. James Forsyth is reported as 'in Pennycuik Parish.' The column on the right is the fee paid on January 25 for the marriage. Note the burial of Robert Scott of Catslackburn, Yarrow at the top. This could be the father of Helen.

The Children of James Forsyth & Helen Scott

Christian Forsyth 1801-1881
b. Penicuik, Mid-Lothian (no parish record of baptism)
Married: Apr 30/May 1, 1825, Dirleton
= Francis Hewat, Blacksmith
of Nisbet Loanhead, East Lothian
Died: April 21, 1881 @ 80
Buried: Pentcaitland Cemetery

Marion Forsyth 1804-1877
b. West Linton, (now Peebleshire) Mid-Lothian (Source 1861 census)
(No parish record of baptism found to date)
M. 1821, Edinburgh
= John Cochrane, Dyer of Haddington, East Lothian
Died: February 27, 1877
Buried: St. Mary's Haddington, East Linton

John Forsyth 1806-1884
Born: November 3, 1806, Penicuik, Mid-Lothian
Baptised: November 17, 1806 in Penicuik
Parents residents of Penicuik
Witnesses to Baptism: John Forsyth and Robert Scott
M. 1828, Dirleton
=Charlotte Cockburn
of Dirleton and Dunbar, East Lothian
Died: November 7, 1884
Buried: Falkenburg Union Cemetery, Muskoka, Ontario

Robert Forsyth 1808-1900
b. 29th of August, 1808, Farley Hope, Linton, Peebles
Baptised: September 28, 1808, Penicuik, Mid-Lothian
Parents were residents of Farley Hope, Parish of Linton, Peebleshire
Father - Farmer
Witnesses to Baptism: Robert Scott and Alexander Davidson
(Baker? oral history)
=

James Forsyth 1811-1890
Born: March 15, 1811 - Lasswade, Mid-Lothian
Baptised: March 20, 1811, in Penicuik, Mid-Lothian
Parents of Lasswade at time of baptism
Witnesses: John Thomson and Walter Forsyth
M. before 1836, Edinburgh
= Jane Fraser, dau of Wm
In St. Cuthberts, Edinburgh in 1851

Helen Forsyth
b. abt 1814 b. Dirleton, East-Lothian (no baptism found)
M. 1846, Aberlady, E.L.
=Peter Wallace, Labourer

Thomas Forsyth 1818 -
b. Dirleton, East Lothian, 22 May 1818
Railway Guard-Berwick to Edinburgh
=Ann (maybe Ann Cameron of Canongate, Edinburgh)

Janet/'Jessie' Forsyth 1822 -
b. Dirleton, East Lothian -13 July 1822, Baptised Dirleton
in Roxburghshire with nephew in 1861
(Australia?)

Aerial View of East Lothian

............. Aerial view looking onto the Firth of Forth east of Edinburgh.

James FORSYTH and Helen SCOTT

(This post has been revised since parish registers were searched in Dec/10)

James Forsyth and his wife Helen appear in the 1841 census records for Haddington, a town now in East Lothian, but at that time a prosperous town which gave its name to the shire. They were living on the same street as their married daughter, Marion who was Mrs. John Cochrane. In this census, both James and Helen gave their birthplace as 'within the census county' while John and Marion Cochrane gave their birthplace as outside of the census county. This is in conflict with oral family history which provides Penicuik, about ten miles south of Edinburgh (now Mid-lothian) as James Forsyth's birthplace.

In the 1851 census, when Helen was widowed, she gave her place of birth as Selkirk, Selkirkshire which is not far from Penicuik, reportedly the birthplace of her husband, James. In looking at the marriage extracts, we find two which could be our James and Helen:

James Forsyth and Helen Scott
Married 25 Jan 1801,
Yarrow, Selkirk

James Forsyth and Jean Scott
Married 20 Feb 1801,
Penicuik, Midlothian

The following information about the proclamation of banns of marriage was extracted from 'Scotlands People' website:

'The proclamation of banns was the notice of contract of marriage, read out in the Kirk before the marriage took place. Couples or their 'cautioners' (sponsors) were often required to pay a 'caution' or security to prove the seriousness of their intentions. Forthcoming marriages were supposed to be proclaimed on three successive Sundays, however, in practice, all three proclamations could be made on the same day on payment of a fee. If the bride and groom lived in different parishes, the impending marriage was proclaimed in both parishes, although not necessarily on the same days, therefore the dates in each register may be different. You may also find that one register may show the proclamation date and the other the date of the marriage itself.'

One wonders if the above records from Yarrow, Selkirk and Pencuik, Midlothian are indeed for the same couple, the second record recording the bride's given name incorrectly. I will refer to these parish registers in the next few months. (Marriage in Yarrow has been checked and Helen Scott was of the parish of Yarrow and James Forsyth was 'in Pennycuik.' I'm not sure what this means. Could it mean he was from Yarrow, but living/working in Penicuik or does it mean he was from Penicuik? Will look into this.)

Death records for James and Helen's children suggest that Christian and Marion were the eldest children, but their baptisms in Penicuik (or any other place) do not appear on the IGI as parish extracts. Someone has submitted some information; however, the only extracts from parish records for Penicuik are for the three sons John, Robert and James. These records will be checked in the next few months. (Records now checked. See later posts for results.)

From the birth places of the children of James and Helen found in the census records, we can trace the movements of the family. It seems that they lived in and around Penicuik as a married couple from early in 1801. Their fifth child and third son James was probably born is Lasswade, closer to Edinburgh, but he was returned to Penicuik for baptism.) Their next known move was to Haddingtonshire (East Lothian). In 1814, their daughter, Helen, was born in Dirleton, now East Lothian and about 10 miles east of Edinburgh and very close to North Berwick. Their youngest daughter, Janet, was born in Dirleton in 1822.
By 1841, James and Helen were living in Haddington. In the 1841 census, James gave his occupation as 'shepherd,' and it should be noted that his son-in-law, John Cochrane, was a dyer, of wool no doubt. James was deceased by 1851 and apparently died in Calder which is south of Edinburgh and not far from Penicuik. (The significance of this place should be investigated.) Helen lived another ten years in Haddington, probably in the same home, but definitely on the same street. They are reportedly buried in the church yard of St. Mary's although no burial record has been found to date. There is a monument for their daughter, Marion Cochrane in St. Mary's churchyard. The records for burial are actually records for the purchase of mort cloths, and therefore not as complete as later burial records.

A Scottish Canadian Folksong

Click on the title above for more information about this song.

Several places mentioned in the song are close to Penicuik, Mid-lothian.

Penicuik, Midlothian

click on title for town website

Penicuik is located on the River Esk, in the Scottish county of Midlothian, approximately 395 miles north of London and 10 miles south of Edinburgh.The town has a population of around 25,000. Administratively it is within the unitary council region of Midlothian which covers an area of approximately 354 sq kms and which has a population of around 81,000.

It is an attractive town set amongst the Pentland Hills. At it's heart is the High Street, a busy wide tree-lined thoroughfare which is dominated by the Town Hall, Penicuik's most impressive architectural landmark. The pedestrianised John Street is the main shopping focus. There are some notable historic sites in the area, including several Iron Age forts on the Pentland Hills, the most interesting of which is Castlelaw which was occupied from Roman times, and the old Parish Church of St Mungo. Penicuik is home to the renowned Edinburgh Crystal works, and it is a good base from which to explore the surrounding area and its numerous visitor attractions.

The town's modern history dates from around 1770, when Sir John Clark planned and began building on the town's present site, and to the east of the original hamlet which had existed here. This development included High Street and John Street. The town grew as a result of its paper making industry which only finally ceased during the 1970s.

The nearby Pentland Hills saw the Battle of Rullion Green in 1666 when the Covenanters were defeated by the army of Charles II. At the end of the Napoleonic Wars, around 1815, the paper mill was converted for use as a prison camp for captured French soldiers. The French Prisoners' Monument, built in 1830, commemorates this.

Historically the town's economy was based upon paper-making, but with this industry's decline the town has undergone a process of regeneration. Industries remaining include the Edinburgh Crystal works and Dalmore Paper mill, some eight miles outside the town. Midlothian Council is the area's largest employer, with many residents also commuting to work in Edinburgh.

The name Penicuik derives from the Cymric 'pen-y-cog' which means 'hill of the cuckcoo'.

Map of South-Eastern Scotland

Bartholomew Map showing south-eastern Scotland. Click on map to enlarge.

Distance from Edinburgh

Selkirk 31 miles, Penicuik 10 miles